How to know the best thing to do is WAY different from actually knowing.
And I’m starting to realize that the biggest task in being a beginner is learning how to judge what is best.
I am not one who learns well from books or DVDs. That may sound odd coming from a person with an M.A. in English. But I find instructional books and DVDs difficult to follow, mostly because the authors, despite their best intentions, fail to explain the one crucial thing I don’t get. Or they assume I know things that I don’t. Or they go on and on about stuff I learned long ago.
And with a book or a DVD, you can’t get help.
With a person, when you’re not getting what you need, you can at least ask, and they can explain again. And with a person, they can observe and make comments when you’re doing well or making a mistake.
Now, if there were only one teacher in the world, that would be simple. But there are many more than one. Many have credentials, others have long experience, and some have both. A few of those actually know how to work with people. And only a small fraction are available at the same time and place as I am.
So, those are the people I work with (or try to, anyway).
So here’s the problem: they don’t agree with each other. Here are two example:
In hunt tests, you stand with your dog at the start line, facing the area where the first bird is going to fall. Sounds simple. But no.
You have to stand correctly, and how “correctly” is defined is not universally agreed upon. Let’s take just foot position. I’ve been told three different things by three different (and successful) pro trainers. The dog is on your left in heel position, so the question is just where to put your feet next to the dog.
- both feet parallel to each other, toes pointing straight toward the area of the fall and even with each other, feet about 6″-10″ apart
- the left foot (the one next to the dog) is pointed toward the area of the fall, with the other foot slightly behind and angled with toe pointing away from the dog
- the right foot (the one away from the dog) is pointed toward the area of the fall, with the other foot slightly behind and angled with toe pointing toward the dog
All of these positions have advantages. The first one keeps everything squared in the direction you want the dog to go: feet, hips, and shoulders. The second and third provide a bit more ease in your ability to maintain balance on uneven ground, and still have a foot that can indicate direction.
Okay, now here’s another one — about how to hold the leash when you’re training your dog to heel.
- Hold the leash loosely so that the clip end of the leash hangs from the dog’s collar in a J-shape. The leash should never be tight, even when the dog is somewhat out of position. For Cooper and me, this equals about a 3-1/2′ leash. You keep the dog in heel position with rewards, food lures, verbal encouragement.
- Hold the leash so that when the dog is in heel position, the leash is loose, but whenever the dog is out of heel position, the leash is tight. For us, this is about an 14″ leash. Of course, you can still reward the dog when he’s in the correct position with treats or praise.
In the first case, the dog learns to heel without depending on information from the leash and collar. In the second case, the dog is given information when needed by the leash and collar.
I won’t even get into the discussion about what kind of collar to use.
So the point of this post is not to argue about which one of the suggested methods is best — it’s to help me think about how to know which method is best.
One obvious answer is that whichever one works for the dog is the one that I should choose. But it’s not that easy.
- First off, I am a beginner. I can’t really tell which method works better. With heeling, I’ve just begun to figure out how to see if the dog is in heel position without looking down and back at him when he’s behind me (another no-no). I will get better at this, but I’m not there yet. With foot position in the field, well… there are so many other variables out there that I have no way of knowing which might be enticing my dog off the straight path to the bird.
- I go to a lot of training classes and sessions because I want training partners and, other than my living room, I don’t have a training space of my own. So I end up in the company of a lot of experienced people who don’t agree with each other and who are trying to help me. I find this both helpful and very confusing.
It seems like I need to just pick one way to do a thing and stick with it. That way, my dog can get consistent information from me.
But then, what am I supposed to do when I’ve picked a way that seems to be working, but the teacher/pro/expert wants me to do it another way? Particularly in the case when I have developed a relationship with this person, am paying them for the expertise, and/or need a training partner or their training space.
I mean, I don’t want to insult these people, and I do want their help.
If I knew how to pick and could justify my choice, it’d be much easier to talk to these people about why I am doing what I am doing.
But that’s the problem.
It’s a circle, and one of those vicious ones, too.
I am getting dizzy.
Patrice, these are such good questions. I think that when experts disagree about the finer points such as these examples, it means there is no clear, single “right” way. Many ways work. The only reason, I bet, that you are getting dizzy is because you are trying so hard to get it. It’s the difference between the beginner who does things exactly by “the rules” and the pro who does whatever it takes to get the result.
As always, you are an inspiration to me. You will one day be the pro and you will smile at this post.
have fun!
xx maria
O brother, can I relate! I am also open to other ways and methods. I am not invested in being right. Ultimately, I just want something that works for me and particularly for the dog. I wish I always knew exactly what to do for each individual dog but that is certainly not the case. So, I have had to just keeping trying things that hopefully, at some point, will get through to the dog I am training. I have seen you work with several dogs. I think you are a patient and talented trainer. Good luck with all your training endeavors!
I don’t understand the 3rd heal position so going to focus on the first 2. For Junior the 1st position is fine. You are very clear and telling the dog you are going to go “that way”. The 2nd position is for doubles. Left leg indicating the first mark, right leg positioned to the next mark. After the first mark you cleanly pivot so that your left leg matches your right leg. Dog repositions on your left leg and watches the next fall.
I have always used the left knee as the dog’s guide point.
Have they had you get down to dog level and see what the dog sees? Sometimes you are better off kneeling for a mark to help lock the dog on. And then you have UKC and that dang gun….
ok.. as for the leash.. that can actually be dog specific. It’s also training method specific. Do you want the dog to only follow your command? (tricky for an IWS) or do you want the dog to learn what is expected?
I personally like a looser leash that allows the dog to make errors and learn how to self correct. This pays off later with a dog that is trying to think “what do I need to get this right and make mom happy” vs a dog who is baffled when asked to problem solve.
Patrice,
It seems to me – as a fellow beginner – that you are writing about the plight of all beginners in whatever form of endeavour. We don’t know a lot of things; we don’t even know yet what all the things we don’t know actually are. Others, some of whom come to our aid, know things but know them differently from yet others who also offer us help. The only way open to us is to experiment with what we have been told and to see what works for us. In so doing, we gain experience and begin to leave the status of ‘beginner’ behind.
Take your example of how to stand at the line. One could make a case that a handler will have to adopt all of these postures at various times and in differing situations. One might place the foot nearest the dog in ways to create ‘suction’, pushing the dog in one direction. But then one might adopt an open stance in order to pull the dog in the other direction as a way of aligning him towards the fall. But one might have a ‘standard’ position for which these other postures are variants called for by specific situations. Only those who are gaining experience through experimenting with new ideas or techniques will finally be able to say how that works for them. And what, for instance, of the possibility of coming up with something that works well for you and your dog but which ‘experts’ frown upon, perhaps with very good reason.
For example, we work with our young puppies in obedience and we command, ‘watch’ or ‘watch me’ in order to focus the dog’s eyes on us. Yet when we move to the field we want the dog to sit at our side and to look down range and not to watch us. In fact, Mike Lardy just wrote a piece in the Retriever Journal on ‘looking’ as an aspect of a dog’s insecurity. [Beckett does this when we are loading up to go to the field. He’ll velcro himself to my left leg, sit on my foot and look up at me, leaning into me, as if to say, “Take me, take me, take me!!!! Don’t even think about going out that door without me. Please, please, please.” Fortunately, this behaviour doesn’t happen at the line and it had better not!]
So please be encouraged to find what works for you as you work with Coop and Tooey. Rest assured that when you finally have figured out some things because they work well for you, the dogs will find a way to screw it up by throwing you a curve ball- especially those brown curly Irishers!
Cheers,
Tim
p.s. All this is only the opinion of a ‘beginner’ and therefore likely to be, from the point of view of the ‘experts’, completely wrong!
okay – so, first and foremost, DO WHAT IS MOST COMFORTABLE FOR YOU. You will always run into new ways of training your dog. I have been doing this for 30 years and I think I have trained 9 of my own dogs and used about a zillion different training methods. Every dog has a different set of requirements as does every human and every human/dog bond. I have had dogs so tough that I had to explain that there truly was no other option than to do what I asked and dogs so soft I had to train off leash before on leash because ANY leash pressure, no matter how soft from lagging or forging, would cause him to freeze and hit the deck.
Everyone has an opinion as to what works and what doesn’t. A good trainer SHOULD understand if you have another method that is working for you and your dog. If not, I would politely explain that you welcome their information and may use it. I would also explain that you are new to the sport and can get overwhelmed with too many suggestions. If your method is NOT working, then of course, your trainer should be there to help you through whatever is going on.
For my 2 cents on what your dilemmas are:
1. I like the left leg pointing towards the fall and the right being back slightly.
2. I like the give them a little leash to work with. though I have been about 50/50 on my dogs pending what all is going on with the dog. the other thing is, in the ring, you need to give your dogs a slack lead as if you don’t not only will you get nailed for lagging but also a tight leash if your dog lags :>)
There are as many “correct” ways to train and handle as there are trainers. It’s not enough to find a method that works – when you are teaching a skill as intricate as heelwork, a dance of rapport rather than just an obedient response, you need someone who can guide you through all of the steps of that method. There are few talented trainers who are also talented teachers.
You will always get conflicting advice. It’s all probably good advice. But you need a coach that will be there for the long haul. I, too, am a visual learner. I can read (and do!) everything I can get my hands on, but I learn more by watching a dog and handler. And when I see someone working with a dog or horse, and that team makes my heart sing, that’s who I want to learn from.
If you can find one person to work with whose dogs’ work fires your imagination and inspires you, see if they will help you. And don’t seek advice from anyone else…enjoy the social aspects of training with them and don’t worry about conflicts.
Happy training,
Betty and the Madcap Irishers and Pyr Sheps
Patrice,
Your post has been the occasion for what must now qualify surely as a minor miracle. Several IWS owners weighed in and pretty much agreed with each other. We’ll have the IWSCA verify that the miracle took place and then I will be happy to propose you for sainthood. Oh wait – I think 2 miracles are required. Cheers.
Tim
The second miracle will come when Cooper gets his CD. I’ll let you know so you can make the sainthood nomination.
From Liz Weaver in a Facebook post on Jan 7, 2012
Patrice, there are a lot of ways to get to the same end. You can try different things without confusing your dog; dogs are smart. What has taken me forever to figure out is to maintain my attitude. By that, I mean don’t let my disappointment with myself when I don’t understand, can’t do, screw up, etc. etc. etc. show. Dogs learn not to enjoy activities that make their person unhappy. If things go wrong, speed off and laugh and play with your dog before trying again.
reply from Deborah Hughes in a Facebook post on Jan 7, 2012
very good point Liz. Another thing… when learning a position… learn it without the dog. practice your footwork and handwork with just the leash and yourself. You’ll work out the clutziness without confusing or frustrating the dog (I am gifted with 9 thumbs – 10 would at least be balanced and 2 left feet)
From Christine Robertson in a Facebook post on Jan 7, 2012
Patrice, I’m not sure it really matters how you set your feet when you come to the line and are watching the birds fall; just be comfortable and make sure the dog is positioned to easily see all marks. I usually try to line the dog up towards the first mark thrown (that memory bird), but if there is a great deal of separation, will settle for the mid point. Lining your dog up for blinds and memory marks is a different story. I always point my left foot towards the mark I’m sending the dog towards; I use my right foot to move the dog to the right and left
Patrice, sorry this response is coming so late. I would agree with Betty most on this topic, although everyone is making great comments. (I can’t speak to your field question, but more to the obedience.) I think in the first several years of training a dog for obedience, you need to find an instructor whose results call to you. As Betty says, you find an instructor whose performances with her dogs “make your heart sing” and learn from her. However, my very first great obedience instructor was past her showing days, and in her case, her students’ performances made my heart sing. More than that, a great instructor has something even more than a method; she has a system. A training “system” is based on principles of dog training; a method is based on procedures and practices. Once you’ve learned a coherent system of training, then all those details you’re asking about click into place, and you can create new responses yourself and still know you’re within that system. That system will tell you how to decide about the length of the leash. A great instructor will be able to articulate her system and be able to tell you at any given moment why you’re learning what you’re learning. The system will be coherent in the sense that bits and pieces you’re learning now will have impact and connect to things you’ll do at later levels, open and utility and beyond. Once you’ve found that instructor, I’d strongly advise you to stick with her, at least until you’ve thoroughly mastered her system.
I find the field end of things messier, because there is so much instinct involved that is individual. However, our end of it is really just more obedience, so all I’ve ever done is bring my obedience knowledge over into the field. I’m having much more trouble with this approach while teaching my young pointing dog, where instinctive style is so important. In spaniel hunt tests, it’s all about obedience, and I suspect the retriever world is the same.